I was supposed to post this article like two weeks ago and didn’t. So here it is now.
A few days ago I made the first of my Character Counts posts. I made a 3.5 and a 4th edition version of the character. It was my first time making a 4th edition character. I was very proud of myself for making one with as far as I can tell I didn’t make any screw-ups like not giving Arthur too many or too little powers, feats, trained skills or completely messing up HP or AC calculations. If I did, please leave a comment letting me know what I screwed-up.
Before I get into talking about my opinion of character creation in 4th edition vs. 3.5 let me share with you how I normally go about creating characters, whether a PC or NPC)
When I create a character, PC or NPC, I like to think about my character’s basic personality, goals and normal means of achieving those goals. The last of those three quite often leads me to choosing its class (at least one in the case if I [later] decide to multiclass).
Then I come up with ability scores. Sometimes I roll the dice (Normally 4D6 drop the lowest) and sometimes I just pull arbitrary numbers out of the air and place them. After that I start to think about (If I haven’t already) about the characters background. What are some of the events of a character’s history that leads them to being what they are by the time they are first level. This is also where I have chosen race for the character. Then I give the character its first level feats and skills.
Now if the character is going to be above first level (for NPCs this is almost always true) I look back at my initial vision of the character and begin leveling up the character. I normally level up to whatever level I want/need the character to be. Then I do skills and feats. If the character is multi-class or has a prestige class (there is proof that I still look at character creation through the eyes of a 3.5 player) I will level up one class at a time give skills and feats. For example, if I were making a 15 character that was a Bard [5]/Assassin [5]/Shadowdancer [5] (very similar to one of the characters I will be presenting in a few weeks in a Character Counts article). I will level the character to a level 5 bard and give skills and feats, then do the same thing for all 5 of the assassin levels and so forth)
After that I get the character equipment and spells if it is a spell caster (Remember for wizards some of that starting money will go towards learning spells that aren’t gained during the level up process)
Now that the basics of my character creation process is out there I guess it is time for me to give you my opinion of character creation in fourth edition compared to 3.5. I think character creation in 4th edition.
It SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The reason I say that is it doesn’t leave room for character customization other than for combat. Here is a simple example. It 3.5 let’s say I have a character (whether or not it started that way) who is good at speaking and convincing people of things. To get that in 3.5 when you create the character you would put some skill points in diplomacy and/or bluff (and/or intimidate) when you make the character and[/or] when you leveled up. I find that the combining of skills in 4th edition adds to this limitation.
No I haven’t actually played a 4th edition game. Now after I play a game Maybe I will feel differently but I feel 4th edition character creation is way too rigid and doesn’t lead to creativity as 3x editions did.
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Oddly enough I’m finding the opposite to be true. 4e makes it easier to build skills-based characters because the the Feats system is freed up to load up with whatever skills (and Skill Focus boosts) you want. If you need a Fighter with skill in Arcana (someone who battles demons, perhaps), that’s buildable at first level; that’s trickier to do in 3e.
Oddly enough I’m finding the opposite to be true. 4e makes it easier to build skills-based characters because the the Feats system is freed up to load up with whatever skills (and Skill Focus boosts) you want. If you need a Fighter with skill in Arcana (someone who battles demons, perhaps), that’s buildable at first level; that’s trickier to do in 3e.
If you want someone convincing then it’s built in much the same way as 3e with Training (and possibly Skill Focus) in Bluff, Diplomacy and/or Intimidate. The difference is that can be done for pretty much ALL classes, not just Rogues/Bards. 4e give you a route to create a convincing Charismatic character regardless of class.
And there’s none of that headache-inducing number juggling to meet Prestige Class prerequisites
Gah! Sorry about the partial double-post!
Skill points in 3e look flexible, but they really aren’t.
If you put a couple points into each of your class skills, what you end up with is a character who’s good at nothing.
In order to have a good chance of succeeding on a skill check of the appropriate level, you need to max out your ranks, or close to it.
Almost all skills in 3e either end up with max or near-max ranks for this reason, or with a very small number of ranks (for trained-only use, backstory Professions and Crafts, and synergy bonuses).
This is one of the things I disliked about 3e. 4e’s system seems better, so far.
Did you notice that 4e retains Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate as skills? 4e leaves just as much room for development in these areas as 3.5 does. As you create the character level up, you take skill training and/or skill focus in these skills to reflect that your character is good at these skills.
For a character in a real game, I would go a step further and attach “fluff text” to skill training or skill focus. Put down a note describing how your character became better. Did they receive formal training? Read a manual? Were they given an important bit of advice? Did they overcome some character flaw?
By linking skill improvements to feats, 4e elevates the importance of skills in the well rounded character. Gradual, general improvements come along with the experience of leveling up, but if you are going to excel in a particular area, it’s a big deal. A feat, if you will.
I couldn’t agree more, and probably because I build characters exactly like you do. In every other edition of the game, although more so in 3.x, I could just imagine a character and then match the rules to my vision. 4e has reversed this, with its limited options and pigeonholed abilities and classes.
It really comes down to how you think about character creation, and there’s a large segment of roleplayers who have been left out in the cold. It’s understandable that the ones who don’t think about character creation can’t figure out what the heck we’re talking about…those kinds of misunderstandings fuel most of the arguing about RPGs that goes on all over the web. It should be enough to simply say, “I can’t make a character the way I want anymore,” and leave it at that.
Please delete the previous comment, I didn’t close the href tag:
I have been creating a series of 4E pre-generated characters on NPC-A-Day (soon up to seventh level) in a manner similar to yours: I think about the character at each level and then choose feats and powers as suits them at that level.
I agree with the statement that it is somewhat more difficult to distinguish one character from another in the same class upon based skills, powers and feats. I agree that the skill set is rather limited and if it were not for the ever inflating DC’s the difference between trained and not would quickly become moot. In 3.5 a trained character that focus on a skill will become a god at that skill; those who don’t are reduced to “helping” or looking on in mock awe.
4E does fix “possibly over-fixes” the multi-class issues where characters have very high saves, most of the skill list, and a bevy of feats and features. It also removes the caster lag of 3.5. It also feels a good bit more balanced.
The big disadvantage with 4E character generation is the lack of everything when compared to the 5+ year body of work that is 3.5. I have little fear that WotC (though my wallet is shaking) will work to alleviate this issue.
I must say that it is taking me the better part of 2 hours to level 5 characters up one level: about 20-30 min to choose powers, feats, stats and assign magic items to all the characters; the rest, 15 min each, is spent updating the math and the character sheet. I figure that with HeroForge or PCGen I could probably finish each level in about 1/2 the time. This is more of a tool issue than a system issue.
Thanks,
Snorkey
“The big disadvantage with 4E character generation is the lack of everything when compared to the 5+ year body of work that is 3.5.”
I’d go one step farther and say that it lacks everything from the past 30+ years of D&D. 4e truly represents a complete break from all that came before. Sure, it’s inspired by 30 years of D&D, but so is World of Warcraft.
Yup, it’s a total break from the past.
I do see some promise in the new system (the ablity to have a “roll your own class” by making power selections unique to your character (once there is enough additional source material). The practice of relabeling and re-fx’ing (It’s magic missile but it shoots green force bolts the shape of pine tree air freshers) powers is also allowed.
The non-combat mechanics of character personality expression are VERY restricted in 4E.
This was true in AD&D: then you were limited to weapon and spell choice.
Less so in 2nd Ed: non-weapon proficients did allow a character to have a “hook”.
In 3.5: Feats, Spells, Weapons, Skills, and a somewhat viable multi-class system.
In 4E: Feats, fewer and diminished skills, and the ability for every class to have choices about how they are built.
An interesting addition (house rule maybe) would be to add 1 “chrome” trained, non-combat skill that the player could fill in. So I could have “Sewing”, Susan would have “Armorer” and Tim would have “Gnomish Trivia”. It would be non-standard but might “fix” one of the issues with 4E.
4th edition systems character creation isn’t really that bad. The flexibility comes from powers and feat selection you take. Feats have different role in 4th edition. Feats have major effect if you want skill-based character. My opinion is that it is possible to make social characters with even more ease than in previous editions.
4th editions best thing is the combat system due to the simplicity of it. It’s weakness however is not the character creation system. Social character will have their fun in 4th edition as well.. and if for some reason they don’t. That’s when you have to point the angry finger at your DM and not the system.
As I said I haven’t played a 4th edition game yet so my opinion of character creation in 4th edition can change when I finally play a game (It will probably be a long time because none of my group wants to try it but me).
No when I used bluff, diplomacy and Intimidate for an example I made a mistake. I got fixed on it because of something I was doing and misplaced it in my head and it ended up in here. That was just a stupid mistake on my part.
I agree that skills in 4th edition are probably more flexible. However I believe that to be a problem in its self. For example, look at Athletics. Someone who is good at climbing might not be a good swimmer. Someone might be a good swimmer but couldn’t jump more than an inch to save their life. In 4th edition if you take athletics as a skill you are good at climbing, jumping and swimming. Now there are some feats that will boost certain aspects of a skill, or at least appears that way. Example: Sure Climber. It allows you to climb at normal speed and +1 to all Athletic checks. So in 4th edition if you are good in one thing you are good in all things. 3x allows you to be good at one thing but not necessarily all. Now before you jump down my throat I am also away if the player is a good role player he will be able to decide on his and role play out if he is good at climbing but not at swimming. But that is still hard to do.
RE: Patriarch
I really like your idea of adding fluff to skills where characters explain how and/or why they are good at a skill.
My next 4th edition character should be out next week (classes just started so my time became more limited, and I am currently getting over a cold). I look forward to more comments so keep them coming.
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I like both 4th edition and 3rd edition character creation for different reasons; I think you are right, 3rd edition allows for more “flex” in design and is built around the idea of planning out a character concept. 4E definitely provides more combat options, but the skill system is moderately simplified; you can still build a character in it, but you have to look at it as a different system entirely….if you try to make it work like 3rd edition, it can be frustrating. If you treat it as a new game entirely, and dispense with preconceptions, 4E actually works very well.
I mostly DM, so I find 4E about 1000% better than 3rd, as it makes the process of designing scenarios, monsters and NPCs considerably easier (and more fun, for me) than 3rd did. That said, I tend to think of them as 2 separate rule sets for the same style of fantasy, so it’s easy for me to play both and feel no contradiction. In fact, my die-hard 1st edition group, that wouldn’t touch 3E, readily adapted and now plays 4E exclusively, since they found it a much better fit with the spiritual intent of the original AD&D system, interestingly.
Sorry it took me so long to reply to this. I apologize.
I definitely agree that they are two very different systems. I see pros and cons to both (I still haven’t played 4th yet so you know) I will say that 4e seems to be easy for Hack and slash style of Role Playing where 3.x has all teh hack and slash but still allows more for the non hack and slash, especially for those who are not great speakers to begin with in real life. The other day my players and I had a quick conversation about this and one thing I compared the role play aspect of 4e to was the lack of RP mechanics in 2e.